Relationships

My Sister Lucy’s Podcast

Lucy Joanna Goddard

My twin sister Lucy just launched a podcast…

Gravity — about what becomes possible when we think of hardships differently. She tackles loneliness, grief, illness, different family structures, and more; her guests talk about how they reframe their difficulties in order to find meaning or happiness.

For her second episode, she actually interviewed me. In our bedrooms in California and New York, we each crawled under blankets, so our voices wouldn’t echo. Then we chatted about personal mantras, how much I love Cup of Jo readers, and a deep depression I went through in the fall of 2019. (I mentioned it briefly here.)

This morning, I listened to the episode while on a rainy walk — I laughed at how soothing and authoritative Lucy’s voice sounds, and then I come in all rambling and chatty (a sample quote: “I felt like I was going to throw up!”) Nonetheless, I was so grateful to talk about mental health and really honored to be on her beautiful show. Sending the biggest hug to anyone who needs one right now.

Here is our episode, if you’d like to listen. Thank you so much for having me, Lucy. xo

Lucy Joanna Goddard

P.S. My experience with postpartum depression, and Lucy’s apartment makeover.

  1. Sally says...

    Thank you so much for sharing. I remember years ago you shared a bit about depression and I reached out to you. I hadn’t spoken to anyone else about it before. You were so helpful and kind. You took time to reply to me and I’ll never forgot it. I did find listening to the podcast hard as it’s all very familiar but it was so good. I admire you and Lucy. Thank you X

  2. Laura says...

    Thank you so much for sharing your story – both you and Lucy. I started to cry when I heard Lucy sob and tell how hard it was to watch you suffer.
    My brother had a very severe depressionn when I started college. I tucked away all my fear, guilt, anger, sadness in tiny boxes and acted as uncomplicated strong child. Of course that did not work out on the long run, and I have started to talk it, but only now with your podcast I refound the package labelled sadness. It contains so many tears but also so much love for my brother. Thank you.

    • Laura says...

      And now I am immediately worried that I make the comment too much about me, or a side topic. I am really sorry Joanna that you had to go through this and thank you so much for sharing your story.
      What I wanted to convey was: by being authentic you touch people’s lifes. You never know how. Sometimes it’s just a sidenote.

  3. K says...

    i’d love to hear more about your relationship with Lucy, i find twins so fascinating…do you really have a connection on another level compared to “normal” siblings?

    • K says...

      i’m also curious how/if ur relationship with ur mom and lucy are different since you are so incredibly close with both– do you run to one of them first depending on the problem, or do you just tell them both the same problems and just get different takes?

  4. Debra says...

    Hi, I enjoyed the podcast so much! I also wanted to give you some (unsolicited) reassurance/personal info that may help you, or someone else who has had postpartum depressions. I had PPD with each of my children and I was gearing up mentally to have another related to menopause. Guess what? Absolutely have experienced the opposite. Yes, my menopause dovetailed with the empty nest, and I definitely had sadness related to this, but it was different from depression because I didn’t feel the hopelessness and thought distortion. So if you are anticipating a deep dive into that now familiar morass, consider that this may not be destined! I also have to say that I envy your relationship your sister, you are so blessed, I do not have this at all with mine.

  5. Jennifer Brown says...

    Yet another reason I am so glad I found your blog so many years ago. It constantly has helped, guided, and supported me throughout my life for the past 10 years. This post was especially perfect. Big thanks to you and to Lucy! Oh, and I love your voices!

  6. jen says...

    This was lovely. Thank you both so much xxx

  7. Luciana Clark says...

    I just heard the podcast.
    As a doctor (oncologist) and also a patient who’s been affected by depression in the past, I thank you and Lucy for sharing your stories! It is so important to talk about mental health out loud and in the open!
    One of the good things that come with the experience of depression (and there are good things afterwards), in my opinion, is that you’re able to recognize the signs in other people and start a conversation that may help them.
    Thank you, for reminding me that it was hard, but not eternal and that it was a point in time, but not my whole life.
    Lots of love,
    Luciana

  8. Laura says...

    Listened to the podcast last week! What a treat to hear the two of you. I actually thought you came off more authoritative and very chatty which was lovely. Similar but different to how I picture you talking in my head through Cup of Jo? Haha. Looking forward to more episodes! :)

  9. Belén says...

    Wow i heard the episode and absolutely loved it, Lucy’s comments were really good. Your mental health story was so touching and I just appreciate a lot that you decided to share it, it was really brave.

    Funny thing, I’ve been a follower for 10+ years but this was the first time I heard your voice and for some reason I had always imagined your voice differently so it was really funny at the beginning to hear your real voice and notice that I had made up a voice for you.

  10. Jamie says...

    You and Lucy need your own podcast! This was great and I want to hear more! Thanks for sharing!

  11. Cole says...

    I was so excited to listen to this podcast episode that my husband followed up and asked me about it this afternoon. I had to confess I hadn’t listened yet… because I was so nervous. As such a long time CoJ reader I’ve never heard your voice, Joanna, and I was afraid something might change after listening. But, of course, I just came downstairs and got to tell my husband that it was perfect. I hope you are off having having a very full weekend.

    • Andrea L says...

      I had the same irrational fear! And then as soon as I heard her voice I was happy and felt like I humanized Joanna more (she’s not just “the Cup of Jo person,” she’s Joanna!).

      Thank you Jo for discussing this important issue; this is the vulnerability we need to break down stigma little by little.

  12. Nikaela says...

    I liked so much the happiness vs wholeness thought. On your podcast episode. I like to think of that in terms of marriage or partnership too? People often say “we’re very happy together” as if that is WHY they are coupled, or still together. But that feels, like you said, like a lot of pressure. And not realistic in a daily intense intimate coupledom. And, if I think about it, I’d rather have a rich full (whole) relationship, than a simply happy one.

  13. Moira says...

    What a wonderful sister collaboration episode! I have to say though, Joanna, I laughed out loud when you said you didn’t think of yourself as a mantra person. Perhaps because hanging in my house by my front door is an “Aim for Yes” print I had made from Etsy after reading your post about this simple but brilliant concept. It’s a daily reminder when I walk out my door with my 2 crazy sons that yes, we actually CAN take the long way to the playground on our walk and that eating dinner hanging upside down (exaggerate much?!) is not going to hurt anyone. I love this blog for its community, but also for your mantras :)

  14. Christine says...

    It’s so sweet hearing your voice Joanna! I didn’t think your voice would sound like that. :)

  15. E says...

    This podcast episode was so incredible. I’ve dealt with bad depression a few times, the worst of it being in fall of 2014 and then again at the end of 2017 through the start of 2020. It is terrible and having flickers of those feelings is really scary. I’m in a good place right now and am the happiest I’ve ever been, and it’s taken a lot of time and work and medication to get here. Thank you for your authenticity. Hearing about your relationship with Lucy also brought me joy :)

  16. Rupie says...

    I loved this episode/conversation and enjoyed hearing your voice! And your relationship with your sister. :) What you shared about depression helped me a lot.

  17. Angela says...

    I listened to the podcast and immediately recognised your sister’s voice from hearing her on other interviews.
    But when you spoke up, I thought ”’who’s this person?”.
    It took me a minute.
    Then i realised all these years I’ve been reading your words in my head and I think in my voice /(australian) accent.
    Joanna, there’s a whole new side of you to get to know :)
    BTW, love the podcast!

  18. Frédérique P. says...

    Hi Jo! I listen to your podcast this morning while doing my run. I am a long time reader like so beautiful women of this community. Thank you for speaking out about mental health. I suffer from depression and still sometime feels like my life is about to go back in that hole. Your words means so much to me. Xxx

  19. Laura Candler says...

    What a beautiful conversation. Thank you for sharing.

  20. Amanda H says...

    I loved this podcast episode so much! I loved Lucy’s husband’s book and her voice is so kind on the podcast. I enjoyed hearing you both in conversation. Talking about depression is really hard, and – as someone with depression – it’s helpful to have more and more people talk about the nuances of depression. It’s different for all of us. My mom had depression but was never able to get quality treatment, so I’m working hard to break that generational cycle so I can be there for my own family. Sending hugs and thank you for sharing your story!

  21. Sharon in Scotland says...

    Your voice was so not a surprise……………it completely matches your face

  22. Loved this so much. How lucky you and Lucy are to have each other, and for all of us readers to have you and your blog. Thank you for all you’ve shared.

  23. Tara Sharp says...

    I haven’t listened yet but just wanted to say THANK YOU for speaking out about depression. You posted about postpartum depression and I was in the early stages of healing from my own postpartum; reading your post that day helped me feel not alone — and helped me find my voice. The depression journey has had it’s ups and downs for me, and to know that it is for you too helps me, again, feel not alone. Thank you for your vulnerability and honesty.

  24. Josephine Williams says...

    Lucy, Jo, Jeremy – that was so beautiful. Thank you!

  25. Theresa says...

    Thank you for sharing your sister’s podcast and your conversation. I can relate, as I’m sure many can. It’s such a relief that depression and anxiety can be discussed more openly now, it really does help people and remove the stigma. Be well!

  26. celeste says...

    Hearing your dad’s soft accent and about your family’s close relationship made tear up. I am so glad you had this support during this time. Your voices are fine :) Lucy’s is like a teacher and yours is like a friend.

    I also still do that Amy Poehler quote after you blogged about it. And the Alexi Pappas book is amazing.

  27. Lizzy says...

    What a beautiful interview! I was all teary listening to your dad read the poem. Thank you for sharing.

  28. Dana says...

    Thank you Joanna & Lucy for joining me on my walk this morning! Great company. :)

    Hearing you speak about your depression brought up a mixed bag of emotions for me. I could relate in many ways, but at the same time found it so interesting to hear you refer to three distinct depressions. I may have thought about depression in this way in my teens when I first started experiencing it. But at this point, after 19 years, I don’t know that I could count distinct episodes.

    I’m sure there are many readers here who also know this unrelenting struggle. I have been chronically suicidal since I was 14 and even after years of of therapy and medication, just this week I was seriously considering my options for ways to leave this world.

    I really wanted to latch onto the idea of, “this is not your life, this will end,” but when I do experience periods of some relief they are so short-lived that it feels nearly impossible to distinguish between a “real life” and a “depressed life.” I wonder if anyone here who sometimes feels completely defined by their mental health struggles can share a perspective that keeps them going.

    As a result of this lack of distinction between depressed life/non-depressed life, I lost a group of friends a few years back when my brain was telling me awful lies about how no one wanted to be around me, that my friends weren’t good friends. I let my depression speak for me too often and my friends decided it was time to pull away. It might be the most challenging thing I have experienced in life so far. It had taken over me so much that my friends could no longer distinguish who I was from what I was going through. It stopped looking like an episode or a phase and more just like my personality, I suppose. I thank my lucky stars for the unconditional love of my sisters, partner, and the dear friends who stuck it out with me. I know it can be painful to be a part of.

    I guess I’m allowing myself to let a little anguish out in the Cup or Jo comments today, probably one of the safest, warmest places I can do it. All of you who are struggling for one minute, one day, one year, one lifetime, I love you & send you hope.

    • Kim says...

      Hang in there, Dana. I am rooting for you, and I hope you are talking to someone close to you about the thoughts you mentioned. I’m wishing you the best.

    • L says...

      Dana this sounds like such an incredibly tough road and I wrap my arms around you from afar and commend you for surviving. You are a badass! Even though I don’t know you I’m cheering you on and telling you not to give up. Just the other day I read an article about a young woman who also had bad, seemingly untreatable depression for her adolescence and young adulthood. She tried different meds and therapy and couldn’t get out of it. But! She said she tried a series a Ketamine treatments and it WORKED! I don’t know if it would work for you but there are breakthroughs happening and there are some promising things potentially coming with Ketamine, psychedelic, and mdma therapy. A lot of it is still experimental but I know some people who work in the field and it seems like there really is a lot of potential for people like you. So please hold on to the hope! And maybe have someone help you look into these new therapies – maybe you can break through, too! Sending you lots of love – I know it’s so so hard.

    • H says...

      Dana, sending you a warm hug. My depression also tells me lies about what my friends think and it has cost me some dear friends as a result. I’m also lucky to have some who have found a way to separate what I’m going through from who I am – and even who see that my depression is a part of me and in some ways has helped brought some of the best parts of me, like my compassion for others. Reading your comment and those words especially made me pause and think about that and feel a moment of real appreciation for those people in my life. So, thank you. I haven’t experienced suicidal depression & it sounds so, so scary. You are brave and strong to live with this. Sending you hope and light.

    • caroline says...

      Dana, this is the first time I’ve been compelled to leave a comment– I felt similarly while I was listening, and want to let you know that I relate. I’m 35 and still figuring out where my depression and anxiety come from. In the past few years I’ve realized that it’s connected to my menstrual cycle, so I’ll be doing okay and then suddenly feel extremely bleak, worthless, unable to focus for like 7-10 days out of every 24-28 days. My therapist recently described my worst feelings as passively suicidal. I have an anxiety disorder on top of all this, and have been experiencing this since my early teens. This all runs in my family, so I think my mom was dealing with similar things during my childhood, and was often overwhelmed.

      I thought the podcast was lovely, but made my own reality stand out to me more in a way that didn’t feel great. It’s nice to hear such a warm, supportive sibling relationship, and how other people have coped. I also couldn’t relate to “this is not your life” because for me it HAS been. For me, an alternate way of thinking has been to train myself to look for small pieces of goodness in my day-to-day. A therapist put me onto gratitude lists a few years ago, and after much grumbling and eye rolling I found that it actually works. I list out 10 good things that happened, or things I’m thankful for, or affirmations even if I only believe them 50%, before bed if I can feel myself slipping. I also try to mentally reward myself for the small things I can do within my control. Did I drink some water? Yes! Did I do some yoga, even if it was only 20 minutes? Yes! Did I listen to music? Yes, look at me go.

      I’m also coming to terms that medication may be part of my life forever, so don’t think I’m saying you can power-of-positive thinking through everything. Medication may be like my glasses, which I’ll always need. But hopefully (especially once I get an adjustment made that I need) it makes it easier to do the stuff you know will help, like calling a friend, getting out of bed, etc.

      I’d also love to read more here from people who have chronic mental health struggles. I don’t think PMDD gets enough attention as a real issue, and it’s been interesting to read about its parallels with other hormone-related depression here.

    • Dana says...

      Thank you Kim & L. I appreciate you taking the time to read my thoughts & cheer me on.

      I’ve read about some of the experimental treatments and hope they become more readily available in the future. I do check in from time to time to see if any clinical trials are open in my area. Not yet! For now, day by day.

  29. Bekah says...

    Thank you for letting us know about this podcast. I devoured both episodes last night. My heart is full this morning with a new understanding of how to talk about loneliness. As I navigate life post-divorce, I’m doing so well single with international solo travel, promotions at work, strong friendships and strong connections with my family yet the loneliness is palpable. My desire for intimacy as a woman, not as an aunt or friend, really is like thirst or hunger; Your body’s way of telling you what you need. I’m going back to listen again today.

    Lucy has the voice, the experiences and heart that will make this new show soar. Its also edited and produced very well. I’m sharing it for sure!

  30. Jenny says...

    It was so nice to hear your voice! Also, your dad’s name is Jeremy?! I knew your mom’s name but it never occurred to me that I didn’t know your dad’s haha

    • Joanna Goddard says...

      Yes! Jeremy Paul Goddard :)

  31. liz says...

    Listened to this episode and loved it! What really stood out to me is that I’ve been reading your blog since before you were married and there was never even one time where I could sense there was anything as traumatic as what you described going on behind the scenes. Obviously, it’s true that not everything is shared but also, they way you were able to keep working through that and putting out great energy here is mind blowing to me. You’re a rock star and I appreciate you shedding light on your struggles to help readers.

    • Joanna Goddard says...

      work was a lifesaver to me! it was the best distraction.

    • liz says...

      well that’s just a great reminder that even if someone seems fine in one context, you still never know what they’re dealing with. virtual hug!

    • Elisa says...

      I totally agree, I would have never guessed that either. We all have our internal worlds and you never know what people are struggling with. I’m definitely one of those people that exudes a cheerful, capable front by default regardless of how I feel. It’s such a good reminder to have compassion and also realize we are not alone in our struggles.

  32. Meg says...

    Thank you, thank you for sharing in this way! I’m so glad we’re living in a time when more and more people – including leaders and celebrities – are sharing their mental health stories publicly. I think back to when I started experiencing anxiety and panic as a teenager in the late ’90’s and how the pain and scariness was so compounded by my feeling the need to keep it a secret. It took me a year to even tell my mom – my supportive, nonjudgmental, loving mom! I’m grateful that now people have books, podcasts, blogs, to tell them that they’re not alone. That they’re in good company in fact – and that many people they admire have gone through something similar. Anyway, thank you!

    • L says...

      Yes to this. My first bout of depression was also as a teen in the nineties and it was so scary not only because of the depression itself but because I didn’t know what was happening or how long it would last (forever??!) and no one around me knew what to do or say to help me and I was such a little perfectionist that I tried so hard to tough it out. I finally resorted to the extreme measure of dropping out of high school and I was able to save myself. Ever since I’ve tried to be very open about speaking about mental health and de-stigmatizing all of it and encouraging everyone to go to therapy ha. It is insane how little the general public knew or talked about mental health back then and I’m infinitely glad that we’re getting so much better at it. (And I was able to finish school and go to college once I got out from under being suicidal. So anyone contemplating doing something radical to save themselves I’m here to tell you that it can work out well. xo)

  33. C says...

    Wow this was so beautiful. I experienced an all consuming depression a few years ago that was spurred on by a medication I was trying out for anxiety. It was unlike anything I’ve ever experienced before. You are such a gift to us all, and this world, for sharing such powerful words with us. And your sister seems just as wonderful as you. Pretty sure this will be my new favorite podcast. <3

  34. Tara Ilsley says...

    I’m so excited about this!!!

  35. Toni says...

    I loved listening to your episode and to Lucy’s blog. Thank you for sharing this with us, those who care so much about you and have never met you. I wonder if you feel all the virtual hugs I’ve sent out to the universe to reach you (and your guest authors, and so many other CoJ community members) over the years.

  36. Gaylen says...

    That is Anton on the left. 100%.

  37. Joann says...

    Thank you both Lucy for bringing forth this podcast and Joanna to sharing and showing your vulnerabilities which will help many others. So awesome to hear both of your voices, so together yet with characteristics to set you guys apart as twins. LOVE IT! :)

  38. Gabrielle says...

    This was such a beautiful and tender conversation. Thank you for sharing your life with us. xx

  39. Anon says...

    Joanna, thank you so much for this. My partner is just on the other side of an intense depression. I hope I was there for him in the way your family was with you, but it was really hard for me to understand the depth of his feelings, and he didn’t like to put too many words to them. Hearing you describe how you felt during your depression helped me feel (as much as it is possible for for someone who isn’t in that not real life) how very hard it was for my partner, and to acknowledge how brave he (and you) are for doing the work to make it to the other side. I’m so thankful for good therapists, medication, and the authenticity of you and the community you created. Keeping this anon not because there is a shred of shame here, but for respect of my partner’s privacy. Thank you.

  40. CS says...

    I am not usually a podcast person, but I will be listening to this one. It sounds like what we all need.

    Thank you xoxo

  41. April says...

    It was really lovely to hear your voice Joanna. Thanks for sharing!

  42. Joyce says...

    What a wonderful podcast to listen to as I nursed my newborn son this morning — so compassionate and deep. It felt like “self care” which, in this phase of my life with two boys under two, is usually relegated to things like showering and brushing my teeth. Haha! Thank you for sharing so openly. Your story is a gift and a balm! Xoxo.

  43. Catherine Johnson says...

    Oh this was so wonderful! Your voice! Your story! Thank youuuu!

    I am currently struggling because I use to be on an antidepressant that worked really well for me, but is not recommended if trying to get pregnant (which I am trying..to do). I now switched to something else that is safer, but it is not working nearly as well. I’m really unsure how to proceed as I want to feel well before getting pregnant, but the idea of now switching back to the old drug and waiting for pregnancy seems like a sad choice too. Life is HARD GUYS! And beautiful. But also, hard!!!

  44. Isabelle says...

    Joanna & Lucy, thank you so much for this episode. Sigh, I have been struggling in the worst depression and intrusive thought episode of my life for the past 3 months. When Lucy said “you were 0-1% convinced you would ever feel better”, I could NOT RELATE MORE. I have such little hope some days, even though everyone around me keeps trying to remind me it is not permanent. It really helps to hear of other people’s experiences and that they too did not trust, and they too got through it anyway.

    Big hug to you and grateful for your openness.

  45. KW says...

    Joanna,

    Thank you for being so honest about your depression. My now 16 year old went through a depression during the pandemic. I have never gone through such a difficult time. And, I had a son that had to have open heart surgery. That was hard, but I had faith he would be okay. My once happy, always doing well in school and active, wanted to hurt himself. He didn’t know how to deal with all of the time he had. He had too much time to think about what he didn’t have (and he has a loving family) He didn’t have a friend he could talk to about how he was feeling. He is now doing so much better. Its amazing how talking to a therapist has helped him. Someone outside of his family to listen to him and give him sound advice. I am convinced this hardship will make him stronger for the rest of his life.

  46. Agnès says...

    Hi Joanna, is the first photo from the Eiffel Tower? it’s quite amazing how the world has changed! (no one can jump from the eiffel tower anymore, fortunately). Just watching the photo gives me vertigo!

    • Joanna Goddard says...

      Yes!

  47. anne says...

    Can’t wait to listen <3

  48. Hanna says...

    Listening to this episode- I feel like I know so much about Joanna through reading this blog for years, but it never occurred to me that I didn’t even know what her voice sounded like!

  49. Amy says...

    What a great episode! Congrats to you and Lucy. And what a trip to hear both of your voices! Oddly, her voice is closer to what I would have expected and yours totally surprised me! But it was fun to listen to you and imagine the convos you and your friends have on your wine strolls through Brooklyn.

    Can’t wait to read the Ode to my Anti-Anxiety Medication! If I had to write a love story it would definitely be about my affair with Prozac. Thanks for sharing so much of your experience and for helping us feel less alone.

  50. Alex Pearl says...

    I loved hearing Joanna’s voice! I listened while walking around Golden Gate Park in SF and my little sister called me halfway and I basically told her that I couldn’t chat right now because I was listening to my friend who was on a podcast. I then had to tell her that friend was Joanna – someone I’ve never met but talk about her posts all the time. My sister lovingly called me a creep.

    Then after listening, I called her back and told her how she is the rock of my life, how deeply grateful I am for her, and how filled with love I am just thinking about her. I redeemed my earlier creepiness.

    • Joanna Goddard says...

      Oh my gosh, tears!

  51. CB says...

    Thank you for sharing this podcast…these words had such gravity…it felt so comforting to hear your voices and your stories.
    I’ve just come out of a difficult time where I repeated to myself “things break and fall apart and underneath it all I am and always have been whole.” Hearing you refer to wholeness rather than happiness made so much sense! I have also been thinking that our scars heal and they make life more brutal and beautiful when we emerge through these experiences. I have for so long been trying to put some feelings or experiences behind me but I am now understanding that we endure these cycles and because of you I can visualize them as part of my scenery and depth in my grand canyon life. Thank you!! (I’ve followed your post for over 10 years and have never been brave enough to comment – today was the day!)

  52. Mimi says...

    Beautiful. I was on the verge of tears hearing you speak so openly about your depression, and hearing your dad reading the poem at the end just did me in. Bravo to Lucy, to you and to your dad. Thank you so much for sharing.

  53. Mary says...

    I’ve been reading along here for years, but it was such a gift to hear your voice! Thank you!

  54. I was feeling a bit glum yesterday (still WFH is getting to me!) and popped your name into YouTube during my lunch break to see what would come up. I ended up watching a beautiful Q&A you did with your sister after the launch of your brother-in-law’s book. I am so excited to hear more from both of you!

  55. Jojo says...

    Thank you for sharing! You and your sister (and whole family) have such a lovely connection. Makes me a little heart-ached for my relationships not being similar, but also makes my heart swell for my daughters and how close they are now — I hope they continue on a Jo & Lucy trajectory.

  56. I am so excited about this podcast. Can’t wait to check it out!

  57. Lindsay says...

    I knew your dad was British but I didn’t realize he was THAT British! His accent at the end was a total joyful surprise!

    • Joanna Goddard says...

      Awww he is the best. <3

  58. AJ says...

    Oh wow… so so good. Had to listen right away and it was truly wonderful. You both sound soothing, so many wise and heartfelt nuggets, I was gripped and moved. And such a beautiful bond between you and your sister. It makes my heart glow for my little twin nieces. Thanks for sharing, and I shall defo be subscribing to the series! X

  59. Chantelle says...

    had to pause midway through as my little arrived home from daycare, but so agree about loving hearing your voice, Jo!

    …so, am I the only one who has been mispronouncing Anton’s name in my head forever?

    Feels like when you read a book that is then made into a movie and the characters names are pronounced differently than you read them (having never heard them spoken out loud). Your world is a little rocked, and inevitably you just sort of keep mispronouncing the name forever even though you know it’s not right? just me?!

    • Joanna Goddard says...

      Oh it’s ANNE-tawn. Is that how you’ve been thinking it?

    • Tina Crisas says...

      Oh wow, in my head it has been “ANtern”!

    • Chantelle says...

      yeah i’ve been so wrong! anne-TIN. i have no idea why! so wild.

    • Megan says...

      I’ve been saying it wrong too! We almost had an Anton, and we pronounced it An-TIN.

      So funny :D

  60. Natalie says...

    This was great, thank you for sharing. You and your sister have done such important work that has impacted a lot of people including myself. Thank you both for your vulnerability and personal stories. Take care.

  61. Sara says...

    Thank you for sharing your experience with depression. Similar to what you stated, I have found, in my personal experience, that medication can be much more than a band aid. I have been on an SSRI for two years and I do feel like myself and like it helped me cope at a time when I experienced depressive anxiety. And I need to cope! I’m the mother of three and one of my children has emotional and learning issues. In part, I believe my depression was triggered by the difficulties my son was going through at that time, but I also attribute it to a family history of depression and anxiety on my father’s side. I will always be grateful to the pharmacist who filled my prescription, answered my questions, listened to a bit about my life and family history, and said kindly and matter of factly: “Some people have low serotonin and that doesn’t go away.”

  62. J says...

    This was beautiful. I am just so happy you and Lucy have each other. I take so much inspiration from you both. Lots and lots of love to both of you wonderful women.

  63. Catharine says...

    Listened to this on my walk today. So much fun to enjoy your sisterly conversation. Thank you for sharing your struggles, Joanna, you must be very brave. Loved it!

  64. Betsy says...

    This was delightful and emotional and insightful but… I also found it hilarious how Lucy still has that strong Michigan accent and yours is gone-zo!

  65. Kate says...

    Ok, I too am on the voice-love bandwagon. Turns out I’ve been following your blog since your (and my) wedding year and I’ve never heard your voice until now!

    • Joanna Goddard says...

      <3 <3 <3

  66. R says...

    One of my favorite podcast episodes of all time! The mutual respect, love and admiration you two have for each other is palpable throughout the episode. Thank you both for sharing this with the world. A highlight of the day.

  67. Laura says...

    Thank you for this! I’ve been experiencing a pretty intense parenting challenge this week and it seems to have triggered another bout for me. The last time I felt this way was 2019 and it was BRUTAL — I honestly thought I wouldn’t get through it. The last couple of days have been really hard but hearing you talk about your depression gives me hope that I’ll get past it soon. In the meantime, I’m taking this to heart: “This is not your life. This will end.”

  68. Michelle says...

    I can’t wait to listen to this. I hope the recent conversations about mental health on the internet continue to grow. I went through an extremely difficult period of anxiety a few years ago and it took me way too long to get help – simply because it was different from what I’d witnessed in other people and I didn’t recognize it. It’s so obvious now in retrospect but I hope we can continue to be open about these struggles so it’s not so mysterious. <3

  69. Amy Reams says...

    I really enjoyed this! Your voice sounded different than I expected! Makes me want to chat with my own sisters :)

  70. I noticed this morning that you were on her podcast and I’m saving the episode for when I can listen to it u interrupted. A little gift to myself :))

  71. Nigerian Girl says...

    Such a great conversation. Your father’s voice is so soothing, by the way. Thanks for sharing one more piece of yourself with us.

  72. Laura C says...

    Oh Joanna, this was such a balm for my soul today. I’m coming off my own bout with depression right now and this is just *chefs kiss*.
    A recent realization I had was about how I tend to ignore the trauma that comes from surviving a depression season. I never wanted to call it traumatic, because there’s so many people suffering far more than me, but at the end of the day, it’s traumatic to go through. And I love hearing Lucy’s perspective on how it was traumatic for her as well. I hope you’re both well and thriving on your opposite coasts. Such a great reminder that we’re all connected in this incredibly beautiful & messy life.

    • Joanna Goddard says...

      Oh, Laura, I’m so glad you are starting to feel better. That makes me so happy for you. Suffering a depression is a real trauma — personally, I think it’s 100% appropriate to call it that. Sending you the biggest hug. xoxo

    • Rue says...

      Hey friend, I’ve got PTSD and when other people describe that something they went through was traumatic, it opens my heart in a big way. I don’t feel like, “because I went through X and you ‘only’ went through Y, you can’t claim trauma.” Instead I think, “oh gosh I’m so sorry other people have been through hard stuff, but I genuinely trust and feel safer around people who have processed big experiences. It actually makes me feel less alone in what I’ve survived, when other people feel ready and able to describe things in terms of trauma.”

      Post-diagnosis I really see the world in two or three clusters: people who have lived through big hard things and processed them, people who have not processed something(s) big and tend to take it out in unhealthy ways, and people who haven’t had something big happen to them and it just feels like they speak a different language. The first group of people are the people I feel the most comfortable, open, and fully myself around. And many of the things that brought us to this place together are traumatic experiences. My little ‘not a therapist’ soap box is that traumatic experiences don’t result in PTSD for 100% of people, but they still “count” as traumatic in nature no matter your brain’s long term response. Sending you love and light. ♥️

    • Em says...

      Rue, I really loved your comment! I have such a hard time using the word trauma to describe my own experiences. In therapy I usually end up saying “the…..stuff I’ve been through” and not being able to say trauma! I found your perspective really, really helpful. Thank you.

  73. jw says...

    This was wonderful – thank you! When I first read your Grand Canyon tip years ago, I immediately made my computer background a photo of the canyon at sunset. It has been so helpful, I return to it often. It’s funny to sit and really consider the impact this site has had on my life – its the strangest feeling to have a friend who doesn’t know you. Thank you for the years of inspiration and comfort! You’re doing a great job.

    • Joanna Goddard says...

      I love that, JW!

  74. Mags says...

    This was amazing. I have been reading your blog for so long that I assumed I was completely familiar with your voice — and then listened and realized I had no idea what your actual (beautiful) voice sounded like. It was very unexpected (but you did not sound rambling!).

    On another note I am so sorry about how hard your depression was. That sounds so, so awful but I also want to thank you for sharing.

  75. Julia says...

    Beautifully done! Loved this quote from Lucy – as beautifully described a bond between sisters and reminded me of my sister as well.

    “She makes me feel braver. I’m brave sometimes because she needs me to be, and other times because she shows me how.”

    Yesterday my sister turned 41. I had her over for lunch and to jump in the lake, eat lunch and have a bit of peace in her day from her kids. I look up to her and am in awe of how she juggles her work, raising 4 kids with her husband, and life in general.

    I’ve struggled with depression my whole life and she’s always been there to lift me back up, usually that’s a simple call in the middle of the day making sure I’m not under my fluffy new Brooklinen (thank you cup of jo!) covers over thinking life. And for her its the things that I will do first for her because she’s an anxious Annie (which is funny because I think of her as so strong and not scared of anything. Yesterday, it was simply me jumping in the lake first. Showing her that there was indeed, NO muskrats swimming in the vicinity, and if there WAS, me jumping in first would scare them away. Two grown sisters at 37 and 41 both scared of lake monsters ;)

    Alas, Lucy’s quote above beautifully described sisterhood in a away I haven’t been able to put words into. And Edna if you are reading this ( you probs are as we both love you JO, HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!”

    • Amy says...

      Julia, your comment made me tear up.

      And happy birthday Edna!!

  76. Anna says...

    I woke up thinking about Lucy and her podcast! So glad to see this today and to give it a listen. Love both of you ladies 💜💜💜

  77. Heather says...

    This was just so gorgeous! As a twin myself, I relate so much to your relationship with Lucy, and I loved hearing your conversation. You are both such remarkable and inspiring women!

  78. M says...

    I listened to it this on my morning run with tears of recognition streaming down my face. I’m so sorry that you had another really hard bout. I’m also so glad that you have people like Lucy, your mom, and dad around. As a longtime reader, I have adopted their and your words to reassure myself at tough moments. For people without families that can offer comforting words, like me, these words are so kind and deeply meaningful. Thank you for that gift.

  79. This episode was incredible. Thank you for your honesty and sharing your story. I know it will help so many people. It was also really fun to hear your voice!! :) The poem at the end was beautiful. Congrats to Lucy…she addressing such important topics. Her episode with Vivek Murthy was so powerful, too.

  80. Amy says...

    I loved the chatty energy in your voice- I also talk a mile a minute! Your sister and dad though! They both missed their callings as narrators. Get those two doing books on tape stat

  81. Mandy says...

    Wholeness versus happiness. I want to sing that from the rooftops! I want my children to know that. I want them not to fear their sadness and push it down to be happy instead. This statement is life changing. Lucy’s podcast is incredible, listening to you two together on it was lovely. Thank you for sharing this.

  82. Barb says...

    I am so, so happy that I just looked back at your post about post-weaning depression just now. I am GOING THROUGH THIS. It is HARD. I feel SAD. I thought it was just because it was my second (and last) baby, but I was never really that in love with breastfeeding, so it has totally thrown me off! I chose to wean because I wanted the freedom back after 10 months, and I have a freezer stash to work through, and I thought I’d feel GREAT. BAH! So happy to read that this is a real scientific thing, and it’s a hormone crash, and hopefully I will feel back to “myself” in a few weeks. I’ve just sent this to my husband, who has been so supportive, but also like “where is this coming from”

    Also, can’t wait to listen to this podcast. Sounds amazing.

  83. Margarida says...

    Will be listening tonight, but can I just say that at first I thought it was Anton in the pic? 😅

  84. Meg says...

    Just downloaded the episode and I’m excited to listen to it on my after-dinner walk around the neighborhood tonight :D

  85. Colleen says...

    Thank you, Joanna, for such honesty and vulnerability! My spouse is currently in the midst of a clinical depression. I’ve never experienced it myself, and he struggles to describe how it feels and what his experience is. This podcast gave me great insight into how he might be feeling, which I hope can help me be a better partner to him in this time.

    Any additional advice to those supporting someone who is struggling with depression would be welcome!

    • Kirsten says...

      Colleen that is so tough – I have BEEN the spouse struggling with depression before, and I can’t imagine how rough it was on my partner to have to take that on! I will say that for me, what felt most supportive was just knowing that he was always going to be there. No matter how how shitty or unworthy or SAD I felt, he always made sure that I knew that he loved me and he wasn’t going anywhere. He is exceptionally good at not taking on my own shit as his own and not taking things personally, which was really helpful. And he never really tried to fix things for me – it never felt like he was in some rush to make me feel better, which would have made me feel worse because I just couldn’t figure out how to feel better.

      I was lucky enough to come out of it a few years ago, and I will say we had to do some work re-organizing the care dynamics of our relationship after that happened. Like he had sort of taken on this role of caretaker for most of our relationship and we had to navigate figuring out what we looked like when that was no longer necessary. I’m thinking about you and your spouse and wishing health for you both

    • Eliza says...

      Colleen — I’ve been thinking of your comment, and I just want to say that you are not alone. My partner went through a major depression several years ago, and it was one of the toughest and loneliest times I have experienced. As I think can be common, he didn’t understand what he was going through and couldn’t put words to the experience, which was so hard for me to understand when I could tell something was so clearly wrong. Helping him find a good therapist was a gamechanger, but so was trying to find my own support during that very difficult time. Opening up to some close friends about what he was going through and working with my own therapist were very helpful. Since he’s come out of it, seeing a couples therapist to process and understand what we’d each gone through during that dark period has been important for us. Being the partner in this situation is very tough, and it doesn’t seem to be talked about all that often. Big hugs to you as you navigate these waters.

  86. Amanda says...

    Adding the umteenth comment here saying, it is so nice to hear your voice! Having read your blog for so many years (literally my entire adult life… I started reading your blog when I was 17, and am now 27), it sometimes feels like I know you? But only now realizing that this is the first time I’ve heard you speak, that I can remember haha

    The Internet is truly a wild place. Thanks for being awesome!

  87. Hali says...

    Welp I started crying at “YET” and basically didn’t stop. Your family is at once refreshingly ordinary and almost intimidatingly extraordinary!

    What a gift this was! My brilliant mom’s name is Jean, she married and had four kids with a tenderhearted brit, and together we battle a few scary depression monkeys that menace our family. Listening to this episode while nursing my 4mo son felt like peering into a polished, relatable and super-wise mirror.

    You are so good! Thinking of you, your boys, your siblings and parents and all the serious things you’re dropping into your Grand Canyon these days. If you look closely you’ll see me, a tiny onlooker cheering and hollering words of encouragement from the opposite rim! Life is so big! Life is so beautiful!!

    • Joanna Goddard says...

      “If you look closely you’ll see me, a tiny onlooker cheering” = oh my gosh, tears, Hali! That is really moving and means a lot to me. Thank you so much. And I’m so sorry your family has to deal with depression monkeys. They are the worst and I hate them! Sending you so much love. xoxo

  88. Fry says...

    Can’t wait to listen! Thanks for sharing

  89. Meghan says...

    I LOVED this podcast! So beautiful and so open. Thank you for sharing. I loved your dad’s reading at the end – I had that poem as a reading at my wedding after reading about it here on Cup of Jo :)

  90. Agnès says...

    It is such a privilège to listen to you, thank you so much for sharing so deeply and beautifully. You truly make my life better and I know other readers too. Also, your voice is so much deeper than i imagined ! I look forward to hearing other épisodes of lucy’s podcast. I will remember that vitality is the opposite of dépression and most of all “this is not your life”. I go through épisodes of depression and you describe that so well. Faithfully from Paris

  91. Farhana says...

    I’m sending you twice as many best wishes and prayers so you and Lucy can share. I’d love to meet with you when you visit Lucy in SF (she’s still in SF, right?). XX.

    • Joanna Goddard says...

      yes, she’s in a town right outside SF! maybe the next time we visit, we can do a CoJ reader meet-up. I would love that :)

  92. AN says...

    i just finished reading sorrow and bliss, at your recommendation Jo, and couldn’t help but equate your relationship with your sister to the one martha had with ingrid. i love the closeness i can feel just from listening to you two speak and can hear the love and calm you bring to each other.

  93. CL says...

    oh, i so loved this, joanna. one, to hear your voice (whoa!) and two, for the wonderful perspective on depression…

    i grew up with a very clinically depressed mother, and as an adult, i could never really understand her experience having not gone through it myself. as a kid, it was so, so hard because she was very absent in nearly every way. but listening to your story gave me a new angle. thank you.

  94. Heather says...

    Listened and loved it – so happy you’ve found a way to view the comments you get on here. When you brought up your mom’s perspective (about not knowing what other people are going through) it actually reminded me of Michelle Obama’s book where she expressed a similar sentiment – that everyone has context.

    Which was of course so perfect because of your Michelle Obama comment! And agree – if she can get negative feedback, anyone can – what a great way to look at it.

    Thank you both for your insights!

  95. L says...

    I would love to read a post about medication for managing mental health concerns some day. And if you felt comfortable, I would especially love to hear your advice on managing anxiety and medication while pregnant or breastfeeding.

    • Joanna Goddard says...

      absolutely! would love to write this post.

    • H says...

      L! Yes. Yes. I am now a mom of a beautiful healthy 15 month old son. Before getting pregnant, I took 10mg of Lexipro daily to treat depression. I was worried about going off it OR continuing it while pregnant and breastfeeding. Fortunately, both my OB and therapist were very encouraging of my choice to stay on the medication – explaining the pros/cons in a way that helped me make this choice for myself and my family. There were moments when I worried about how this would impact my baby, but mostly I have felt really good about choosing this for myself. Good luck as you figure this out and know that you are not alone!!

    • E says...

      I was off meds by the time I got pregnant but just wanted to share that I found it really empowering that meds were an *option* to help manage my depression and anxiety. My therapist really helped me feel I was in control of that process, that I could scale them up or back (I very much wanted the minimum necessary) if I was uncomfortable, and with that kind of freedom it seemed worth a shot. I’ve been in therapy with and without meds and for me there was a time and place for both

    • beecham says...

      I’m not pregnant but am afraid to take medication for depression. I can only barely articulate why, though they are probably fairly common concerns. I’m afraid I will only be able to function by taking them or that they will damage my dna somehow or influence my thoughts in a way that does spiritual damage. (I am not into religion but am very spiritual.) I understand these look like the concerns of a hillbilly, but my mensa-level IQ has not provided any comfort regarding this topic. Meaning, I can talk my self out of these thoughts, but they remain how I FEEL. I have been really learning to respect my feelings because my brain has always led the way and I’ve begun to recognize that this is only half of one’s expression of intelligence. Maybe less, there are likely other factors. But point is, I feel this way at present, and I’m not sure it serves me. I don’t have health insurance so I can not easily explore it. I would love to see a post that explores a well-considered exploration of medication.

    • allison says...

      I’m pregnant right now and started Zoloft for my anxiety just a few months before we conceived. I’m so grateful I did, in large part because I think this time would be significantly more stressful (which would not be good for me or my future baby) if I wasn’t on it. The key for me was finding a psychiatrist who is extremely knowledgeable about recent studies about pregnancy and medication, and willing and able to take the time to walk through the science and data, different classes of drugs, etc. and really explain it to me and answer all of my questions, and be open to talking to my pregnancy care team if needed (luckily, the midwife group I’m working with is great and supportive too). It took me a couple of tries to find the right psychiatrist, but I’m not being hyperbolic when I say that finding one was life-changing for me and my own confidence in my care.

  96. LL says...

    “The opposite of depression is vitality ” Gosh that speaks to me in volumes. Vitality has been missing for me for a while . One foot in front of the other right ! Thank you Jo and Thank you Lucy.

  97. Mallory says...

    Listened to this episode immediately and subscribed! I’m having a tough and disorienting week after visiting a dear friend for the first time since he was diagnosed with a terminal illness. Your perspectives are so lovely and hearing from you and Lucy and how you’ve dealt with your various losses and challenges is so meaningful. I love the concept of wholeness over happiness. And aren’t sisters just the best? I miss mine daily (she’s in Seattle and I’m in SF) but I also get to witness my two girls growing in their sisterly bond and it’s the most tender and gorgeous blooming relationship. Anyway, thank you for your vulnerability!

  98. Sarah says...

    Thank you for sharing, Joanna. I find myself jealous of your close relationship with your sister. In your voices, it is easy to hear the love you carry for each other. I immediately texted my sisters to tell them how much I miss them.

    • Jen B. says...

      This episode rang so true for me. Medication has saved me from the black hole of anxiety and depression, and I was one of those people who resisted drugs for so long because of the stigma. I now make a point to talk about meds and mental health in casual conversations with family, friends and coworkers, in the hopes that it can become just another thing we can all talk about. I would 100% love to read an ode to your meds!!! I love mine like a dear, lifelong friend.

    • Joanna Goddard says...

      “I love mine like a dear, lifelong friend.” = YES! my best friend, my lifesaver, a gift, how I can be my true self.

  99. Leigh says...

    This was such a beautiful listen. As someone who is dealing with perinatal depression, and struggling mightily to get help, I so wish the mental health care you talk about was easier to come by.

    I hear such hopeful stories of the potential of therapy and medication, and yet, after calls to literally dozens of therapists and psychiatrists — calls that aren’t easy to make in the first place — it seems no one has availability.

    I’m glad demand is high — perhaps it means more of us are getting the hep we need — but surely we can do better as a mental health care system.

    • shannon says...

      Leigh – I work in maternal mental health, and I’m so sad to read you’re having a hard time finding help. I agree it is way harder than it should be, and by the time you realize you could use some help it’s often even harder to wade through all the red tape.

      You’ve probably already checked this out but just in case (and for anyone else reading), Postpartum Support International is a huge hub of resources. They have a provider directory, free support groups, and a hotline. Their local hotline volunteers can help you find resources in your area. And if you are open to using virtual therapy, you can meet with anyone licensed in your state (not just in your specific area).

      If finances are a concern, I recommend checking out Open Path Collective which offers lower fees.

    • Jennifer says...

      Leigh, what Shannon says is on the mark. I just wanted to offer another option. During the pandemic, we used online health services to access care for our family, and decided to go with Doctor on Demand (though I know there are others out there and they offer similar services, so I think you have some choice). Our insurance covers the cost of the visit, and it can be within the hour, depending on what you choose. They provide mental health care and can prescribe medications that you can pickup at your local pharmacy. To our family, who struggles with mental health issues that sometimes come up as a surprise, this is nothing short of amazing. It is very easy and comfortable (just download an app, put in your information, and it will tell you how soon you can meet with someone while you sit on your couch). Even if your insurance won’t cover it, it’s a pretty manageable fee—cheaper by far than a regular in-person appointment. I’d recommend looking into it. Good luck to you. I’m sending positive thoughts your way.

    • Heather says...

      Leigh, I’m so sorry you’re dealing with this. Not sure if this is an option for you but I wanted to put it out there: this spring, I finally decided to seek treatment for my long-term anxiety. I thought I had to find a psychiatrist to prescribe anti-anxiety medication, but ran into the same roadblocks you did – couldn’t get a response from one. Finally, out of desperation, I scheduled a televisit appointment with my primary care physician to talk about it. It turns out she was able to prescribe me an SSRI right away, and referred me to a short-term therapy option within her practice. I still want/need to work on finding a long-term therapist, but the medication didn’t have to wait – and taking it has made it easier to tackle the rest of my treatment. My doctor is able to monitor my dosage and refill my prescription for as long as I need it. I had no idea that a “regular” doctor could do that, and it was such a relief.

  100. Jen says...

    Thank you for being brave and speaking up and sharing this intimate part of your life. “This is not your life” but for many of us, it has been our lives and your way to verbalize this in discussion with Lucy is so powerful.

  101. Sonja says...

    Hi Jo – listening to this podcast. Your open sharing is raw and beautiful and I have felt the exact same way. Thank you. Right now I’m standing on the edge of an ocean of ambiguity and the fear of falling into a depression given potential change has gripped me. Hearing you talk about the stages is really buoying. Sending so much love and prayers that anyone who has a scratch on their brain has the support, access to healthcare, and love that they need. And to those caring for someone dealing with depression – you are incredible. The depth of my gratitude to my husband and family and friends is bottomless.

    • Julia says...

      “standing on the edge of an ocean of ambiguity” — this so beautifully captures how I’m feeling. I’m standing beside you on the edge, Sonja.

    • Sonja says...

      Hi Julia :) I hope the ships come over the horizon soon.

  102. Holly says...

    subscribed. :-)

  103. karen says...

    I love sibling companionship. I’m glad you have each other!

  104. amy says...

    I couldn’t love this podcast or you, Joanna, any more. I listened to the podcast this morning while I was spinning on my peloton and I had to stop. When you spoke about the Grand Canyon and your mantra of “I love you and you will get through this” I started to cry. It was such a powerful episode. — A loyal reader

  105. Anna says...

    I’m listening to the podcast right now and I’m already getting teary-eyed. I’m one of your listeners that’s followed you from Glamour, dating before your hubby, meeting your hubby and of course, the kiddos =) It’s been quite a journey Joanne but you have touched so many lives with this website. I feel like I’ve grown up with you too and I’m a 42 year old single mama who’s living her best life because of your empowering articles ♥ Thank you for being transparent with your life and sharing your story with us! Btw, I love your voice. I finally get to hear after all of these years.

  106. Jeanne says...

    Go Lucy! Can’t wait to listen to you both. I love her choice for the name. It’s like a lovely counterpart to “Air”.

    • nadine says...

      Yes!! It has both gravity as depth, and gravity as finding the centre.
      Loved your conversations, thank you so much for sharing!

  107. Jamie says...

    I can’t wait to listen!!

  108. Hanna says...

    Can’t wait to listen Jo! So exciting and congratulations to your beautiful sister.
    xoxo

  109. Sarah says...

    Joanna, thank you for sharing this and I can’t wait to listen to the episode. Question for you… what steps do you take to guard your marriage against the depression monkey? I always feel so far from my husband when this comes up. He is not nurturing by nature (he is deeply loving, but not sentimental, not nurturing, not a physically affectionate person – very different from me) and a small depression dip for me makes me feel lightyears away from him. I would love to know how you and others address this, if you have similar experiences.

    • Abesha1 says...

      On the flip side: my husband did get care, and is now feeling really good on his depression meds, while I’m still over here thinking, boy you really messed us up… and I’m not sure how to get past it.

  110. Agnès says...

    100% of your readers are going to listen and the site will crash! How beautiful that both of you are listeners, caretakers and story-tellers! I’m really excited and moved to listen to this podcast; I just need my family to go to bed now (it’s 7 pm though, in Paris). Love from Paris

  111. Anna says...

    It’s so fun to hear YOUR VOICE! You’re real :)

    • Jen says...

      I know! It sounds lovely, of course, but so different from how I hear it in my head. Lucy’s too.

      Thanks for sharing your lives and wisdom, sisters!

    • Sherri says...

      Yes! I was so thrilled to hear Jo’s voice!! 🥰

  112. LK says...

    So excited for this. Thank you, Lucy & Jo!

  113. Marianne says...

    Joanna, this episode was incredible. I have really enjoyed both of Lucy’s podcasts, but your’s really blew me away. Thank you for being you and for sharing “you” with us. xo